Episode #097: Creating Organic Content For Instagram That Connects with Kimberly Espinel
Creating Organic Content For Instagram That Connects with Kimberly Espinel
Hey there not-so-average marketers!
I'm bringing you something special today - a guest interview that I'm genuinely excited about. You know I don't bring guests on very often, but when I do, they have to bring serious value.
Meet Kimberly Espinel, a London-based food photographer, Instagram expert, and author of two books including her latest "How to Make Your Food Famous." Now, you might be thinking "Zach, I don't sell food or do photography" - but here's the thing: some of the best marketing insights come from studying adjacent industries.
In this episode, Kimberly shares data-driven strategies from interviewing 40+ content creators who have 100k+ followers (many with over a million). This isn't the watered-down Instagram advice you see everywhere - this is deep, strategic insight into what actually works.
What we dive into:
How often you really need to post for growth (spoiler: it's not daily)
The real stats that matter for organic growth beyond likes and views
Why your first 3 seconds are make-or-break for any content piece
How to analyze your top-performing content and actually replicate it
The difference between content that grows followers vs. content that nurtures existing audience
Bio optimization that actually converts visitors into followers
I'll be honest - I've paid good money for Instagram courses that didn't give me half the actionable insights Kimberly shares in this conversation. This is the kind of strategic, data-driven approach that actually moves the needle.
Whether you're struggling to break out of "200 view jail" on reels or you're ready to get serious about organic Instagram growth, this episode will give you a completely new framework for approaching the platform.
Links Mentioned:
Full Transcript:
Zach Spuckler [00:00:01]:
This is Not Your Average Online Marketing podcast, episode number 97. And in this episode, we're talking to an Instagram expert about what it takes to get your content seen organically. You know, I'm a fan of ads, but if you're looking to get more organic reach, this episode is for you. So stay tuned. Hey, hey, hey. Not so average marketers. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. Now, I'm excited because if you are a longtime listener, you know I don't do guests too too often.
Zach Spuckler [00:00:31]:
I do from time to time, but when I do, I like to bring in good people. And I'm really excited to bring to you today Kimberly, who is a food extraordinaire, food blogger extraordinaire, food photographer extraordinaire, Instagram expert, and she helps food bloggers get their content seen on Instagram and food photographers get their food seen on Instagram. But here's what's so cool. I was so excited to bring her into the show because I think so often we can learn things from adjacent industries that apply to us. And when you get into this conversation with Kimberly and I, what you're going to discover is that she's a really smart cookie. And you might think, I don't sell food or I don't sell photography, I sell courses. How is this going to help me? Well, we're going to get into that and we're going to talk about how you can learn from what incredible photographers are using to go viral and reach new people on Instagram can be applied to your business and your experience. So if you're trying to grow organically on Instagram, you really want to lean in.
Zach Spuckler [00:01:34]:
And with that being said, I'm going to welcome Kimberly to the show. Hey, Kimberly, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you.
Kimberly Espinel [00:01:46]:
Hey, Zach, it is wonderful to connect with you again. So thank you for having me.
Zach Spuckler [00:01:51]:
Yes, I am so excited to have you on. And I was telling you before we hit record, this is going to be such a fun interview because I joke that, like, I'm the least social media driven person there is. Like, I always want to be good at Instagram, but then I'm like, oh, I'll just run a Facebook ad. So this will be a really fun interview. We got to meet a few years back inside of a mastermind that we were both in. And funny story, you do a lot with food photography. And I used to do food photography. I used to have a food blog.
Zach Spuckler [00:02:18]:
And so when your name floated across my desk, again, my email was like, oh my gosh. I know that you're great at Instagram, I know you're great at photography, and I'm so excited to kind of marry the two together when it comes to marketing too. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your business, what you do, and then we're gonna talk Instagram and organic growth. It's gonna be super fun.
Kimberly Espinel [00:02:40]:
Thank you. So thanks again for having me. My name is Kimberly Espinel. I'm a London based food photographer, food photography teacher. I also am the author of two books, Creative Food Photography and my latest book, How to Make Your Food Famous. And I'm obsessed with Instagram. I have been obsessed with Instagram really since its inception. So yeah, very excited to share some tips and tricks with your listeners.
Zach Spuckler [00:03:06]:
I love it and it's so funny. You're London based, which I always forget. One of our favorite restaurants in the world is in London. Dishoom.
Kimberly Espinel [00:03:15]:
Oh yes. Delicious.
Zach Spuckler [00:03:16]:
Can't get enough of Dishoom. So every time we get over to London, we're like, right at Dishoom. You guys have to look it up. Well, I'm very excited to chat, so I think the best place to start would be talking maybe more logistics. I think that a lot of people feel like they have to be on Instagram 24/7 to see growth and it feels like they just roll out new features constantly, right? So now it's like, oh, should it be a carousel? And then I need to post a reel every day and then I also need to post my stories five times a day. And then, oh, what about these broadcast channels? And before we even get into like the, the intricacies of what works, talk to us about, like, how often do we really need to be showing up on Instagram if we do want to see growth of our audience?
Kimberly Espinel [00:03:55]:
I love that question. So it is a little bit about how long is a piece of string, right? So you can show up five times a week and grow incre incredibly. And you can also just show up once or twice and still have growth. I think the important thing is one, that you're consistent. So if you commit to two times a week, you better be there and show up two times a week. If not, it messes up the algorithms, it messes up your connection with your audience. It's just not going to work. So I think that's number one, like whatever you can commit to long term, that's a good place to start.
Kimberly Espinel [00:04:29]:
And then the second thing is, I think right now we're really in a quality over quantity phase on Instagram. So I'm thinking when reels came out, literally you could lip sync to anything. You'd go viral, you know, and those days are over. Like, it's really now about having content that adds value, having content that really explains what you offer. And so what that means, I've seen people do this, they just show up with one reel or one post a week, and that one, you know, just slaps and they're doing incredibly well. So, you know, it kind of depends a little bit.
Kimberly Espinel [00:05:04]:
But I would say that if growth is what you're after, then posting on your grid needs to be your top priority. So I, for me, the soft, the, the kind of sweet spot is three times a week. I think that gives you enough kind of trial and error, you know, and gives you enough opportunity to practice, gives you enough data to get stuck into to see what's working, to build on that. So I think that's really, really nice. But if your business doesn't allow for that, twice a week, you know, two really strong, incredible posts is amazing too.
Zach Spuckler [00:05:41]:
I love this, and I'm taking notes as you talk because I think for me, the big thing is I think I could show up three times a week. What about when you are like, let's say you are setting that goal. I'm going to show up 10 times over the next 30 days. If you miss one of those days, I'm notorious for that. Like, what it is, is there, do you need to overcompensate? Do you need to be like, okay, great, now I'm going to like, sprint back in. Or is it just like, set that goal of, you know, 10, let's say in 30 days, posts, reels, carousels, whatever, and do your best. It's better to show up some than to, like, mess with the consistency, vibe, if that makes sense.
Kimberly Espinel [00:06:17]:
Yes. So if we take, say three months, right, you're, you're gonna post three times a week for a solid three months. If one of those weeks you only show up twice, that is absolutely no problem. Not gonna make a difference. What I will say is I do think there is a little bit of a mindset thing. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, I'll say this because I'm just going on my weight. I'm in my weight loss phase right now, right. Like, some people, if they mess up that one day, it just sets off a whole spiral of whatever.
Kimberly Espinel [00:06:49]:
Right? Like, some people are like that and then other people can have like a bad day and then be right back on it. You know what I mean? So if you know that you're an all or nothing person, then I do think it's helpful to make that commitment and do three times a week and really stick to it. If you know that you fall off the bandwagon one week and you just show up once and then you can get right back on there, then that's fine too. So I think we need to take like a bigger picture, you know, perspective. And over three months, if one week you didn't, you know, you didn't even show up at all. If it's just one week, maybe two, over the course of three months, literally nothing's going to happen.
Zach Spuckler [00:07:25]:
Okay, I love that. And I was looking at your Instagram because I was like, I should pull it up and look at it. I. I would love to kind of know. So let's say we do commit to showing up, let's say 10 times every 30 days, 30 days over the next 3 months, collectively. Like, how should we be showing up and should we be playing that, like, I call it, like the algorithm game of, like, oh, right now it likes reels. Right now it likes carousels. Right now it likes static posts.
Zach Spuckler [00:07:53]:
Like, is that something we should be engaging with or is it more important to put content out? So maybe it's like a two prong question, if you will.
Kimberly Espinel [00:08:00]:
Yeah. So I think it is really about what you are good at and what resonates with your audience. So I have seen people, and we talked about this when you were at my podcast. I've seen people just do carousel posts and go viral, like, constantly because they're good at the graphics, they're good at the hooks, they're good at understanding their audience. They've got a formula and it's just rinse and repeat. And then I've seen people post, you know, reels, and that has hit the mark. And then I've seen people like myself who do a little bit of both. So I just think it's understanding your strengths, understanding your audience and understanding what you can, what you can achieve in the time that you have to dedicate to Instagram.
Kimberly Espinel [00:08:46]:
So that was the first part of your question. I hope. The second part. Please remind me what that was.
Zach Spuckler [00:08:51]:
Yeah, so, like, let's say, okay, I fully am with you. It's like, if I'm gonna do carousels, let's do carousels. Should I get involved in, like. Well, actually, let me back up. You've kind of answered both questions, but I think the underlying question is like, let's say I'm gonna post a static every day. Do I need to get involved in, like, what, like, let's say like the what's working now type stuff, right? Like, yeah, like I'm seeing, let's say. You know, I know the big thing for a while was like people used to do their face over, like the notes app, like green screen, reel style. Like, that was a big trend for a long time.
Zach Spuckler [00:09:23]:
I don't know if it still is, but should I be like, engaging in like, what's trending as well, or should it be more about what resonates with what I'm going to do and what my audience wants?
Kimberly Espinel [00:09:33]:
So I think you can go either direction. So I think there's absolutely nothing stopping you from following a trend or using a trending audio or whatever. I just think, like, what is nice is if you develop a style and a content strategy that that is your own, that is recognizable, that works for you. And, and the best way, rather than necessarily jump on, you know, a trend or something like that, is to dig into your stats and look at what is, what are the content pieces that have consistly performed well. And performed well can look a lot of different ways. So one can be, you know, which content pieces actually brought me new followers. So if you want to grow, you know, then look at the content pieces you can rinse and repeat. Which brought me the best level of engagement? If you want to connect deeper with your audience, then that is some of the stats to look at.
Kimberly Espinel [00:10:23]:
And that might not be the same content piece that brought in the followers, you know? Or was there a content piece that actually led to you getting new leads, new inquiries? Did you post something and notice that suddenly you made more sales that month? You know, all those content pieces can be actually really different. And the final one is shares and saves. That's something else again. And it has a different impact on your business. So I really like to just, at the end of the month, go into my stats. And this is also why I'm again an advocate for three posts a month to understand, like, what are the carousels doing for me? Because I do post them and they serve a very particular role. They don't normally reach that many new people for me anyways, but they do serve the audience that I have and allow me to build like a deeper connection. Then I have more personal posts.
Kimberly Espinel [00:11:16]:
Sometimes those are reels, sometimes those are carousels, where it's just about connecting with me emotionally. And I did that kind of as a challenge to myself because I'm a little bit more private, as it were. But what I did notice is that once I did that, around the time that I posted things that were a little bit more personal, I made more sales. So that was a very interesting, you know, like, okay, what's going on here? Let's understand this. And then for me and for most people, I would say reels is really about growth. It's the best chance you get to reach new people, to go viral especially, and to get new leads ultimately into your business. So, you know, I just think what you need to do is look at your stats and then figure out a strategy that, you know, aligns with the goal that you actually have.
Zach Spuckler [00:12:04]:
Okay. That I love, because I'm such a stats person. And I feel like, you know, everyone always says, like, what's working, what's not working? And, like, do more or less of that, but being able to. And again, for. For those who don't know, like, I record this on Zoom. So, Kimberly, just so you know, I. I'm sure you see my eyes darting around because as you're saying this, I'm like, oh, I should look at my stats. I kind of look at these numbers so that I have context.
Zach Spuckler [00:12:26]:
Context of, like, what you can look at. So you can look at things on Instagram, like, you know, views, likes, shares, profile visits. You can even see, like, wow many people went to your profile. I don't know. I know on the mobile app they even show you, like, the follower growth from content, which is like, super helpful. What kind of stats, like? And I know I just rattled off a ton, but if we are like, okay, my goal is growth, and obviously we want to look at, like, you know, sales and leads. We're all about that here. But what do I, like, what are the primary stats that are telling you, like, okay, this is content people like.
Zach Spuckler [00:13:01]:
Or I should be doing more of holistically in my Instagram growth strategy.
Kimberly Espinel [00:13:05]:
So if growth is what you're after, then obviously you need to look at how many new followers a post brought you. But the other thing is to see the percentage of new people your post reached. So there's going to be that little circle, and then we'll say whatever, 15% current followers and whatever 75% or 85%. So that is what you want to understand, as it were. And then this, the third one... So one is just general follows. Two is the distribution between followers and non followers, and the third one is shares. Those are the three, you know, stats you need to look at if growth is what you're after.
Kimberly Espinel [00:13:42]:
And then what I do if I have a content piece. So I'll give you an example. If I had a content piece reach a million people, right? Like, it went viral. So I was like, okay, what? What's going on here? So I looked at what was the topic I was covering, what was my opening frame, how long did it, how long was this particular reel, you know, what was my call to action, what were the hashtags that I'm using, what were the keywords? And what I noticed is, you know, because I'm in the food photography space, if I start my reel with me looking at gear, like really fancy looking gear. Like in this case, it was a macro lens that you attach to your phone. So it's kind of really this fancy schmancy thing that you, you know, and people were just intrigued by that.
Kimberly Espinel [00:14:32]:
So it's like, okay, so this opening frame and this length is hitting the mark. And so then the next reel I did, where I wanted to promote my course, I started that reel with that opening frame and it performed really well. And then as a matter of fact, the company that produces those, those lenses reached out to me for a brand, you know, paid brand collaboration. So, you know, it was very, you know, I really dig deep. I really dig deep and I look at all the different levels so that if I need to, I want to replicate it. That said, I do think there's something dangerous is a little dramatic, but. But, you know, I'm seductive about only looking at growth, you know, and I think that's why I also look at saves.
Kimberly Espinel [00:15:22]:
I look at engagement so that I'm not just only attracting new people. I'm also nurturing the connection that I have with people already. Because actually, they're much more likely to buy from me than somebody who just saw me tinker with, you know, a lens. You know what I mean? So I do try to not be, not start every real now with that, you know, that opening frame. You know, like, I, I use it cautiously and mindfully, as it were.
Zach Spuckler [00:15:49]:
Okay, I love that because while you were talking, I was pulling up, like, rarely do I have Instagram content do well, but I did do a reel that did well. And I'm kind of listening to what you're saying. And we had a good makeup of like, followers versus non followers. Our interactions came more from followers. We didn't get a lot of follows. So it's like, that's kind of telling me just based on what you're saying and like interpreting what you're saying is like, okay, this is a piece of content where I need to look at what's in it. It's me showing my face to the camera, which clearly my followers like, they interact with. And so that's like, more...
Zach Spuckler [00:16:19]:
Maybe I wouldn't use something that's like me to camera to get new followers, but I might use something that's me to camera to, like, nurture or engage my existing audience. And then I also am, like, looking at our regular content, and I notice our highest viewed content is not... I'm in it. Like, it's me on the screen. So that's very interesting content. And so I love this because so many people, when I talk to them about Instagram growth strategy, they're like, put out content and see what works. But you're really giving us, like, don't just go like, oh, this one did well. This felt good. This got views, this got follows. You also need to dig into what is the makeup of that engagement? What kind of engagement are people seeing? Is that going to followers, non followers? And I'm also noticing that when I do trend writing, like, one of the things we did was that trend that was viral like a couple months ago was like, if I had coffee with my younger self, that actually did get us some followers and lots of people visiting our profile and profile links from that.
Zach Spuckler [00:17:17]:
But it really engaged my followers. So, like, I don't know, there's just something there. I don't even know if that's helpful for people listening, but I think this is really valuable. Now, can we, can you talk about, like, I think...
Kimberly Espinel [00:17:29]:
Can I? I kind of want to dig a little bit deeper.
Zach Spuckler [00:17:31]:
Yeah, please. Yes.
Kimberly Espinel [00:17:33]:
Because for me, what's very interesting because, you know, like, we always think that we're just boring entrepreneurs. We sit in an office, we're talking to mics, we're doing, you know, spreadsheets. But there's something about people who admire what we do, who want to be where we are. And I think that's why my go to never is to post personal content, like I said in the beginning, but every single time I do, it just creates like a whole, you know, firestorm in a good way. And so I say this because if you know that coffee with my younger self piece, ultimately that's a heart piece. That's a personal piece. And from what I know from your Instagram, that is not necessarily the bulk of the type of content you share. So what these stats are telling you is that people want to understand, you know, you get to connect with you and see that you're just like them.
Kimberly Espinel [00:18:28]:
And that at the end of the day, a person just like them has achieved this level of success and that gives them a level of hope. So I would invite you to post at least one, I dare say, two of those more personal content pieces. You know, you can use the the coffee with my younger self as a springboard and you can even try, type it into ChatGPT and see what they spit out and see, see what comes up. But, but I would challenge you to do that because, maybe do it, I mean you can just do it from the heart and see how it goes. Or you could also do it strategically and do it a week before you have a launch so people feel like a connection to you. You know what I mean? And because we buy from people at the end of the day. So I would really double down on that piece and, and create a little bit more about that.
Kimberly Espinel [00:19:18]:
So this is the first thing. The second thing, I think it's very interesting that you had a piece that got good engagement that actually reached a large amount of non yet didn't bring you follows. I would want to understand why not. So I would want, you know, with your social media team or yourself really kind of what was my hook here? What was, was there a value piece? Was there a call to action? You know, did I, did I post one or two similar content pieces afterwards or before that that would entice people to continue to. You see what I mean? Like, I wouldn't just let that stat just hang loose. Like I would and I would try and replicate but correct that content piece so that you have the same reach but actually get people to press follow and there's
Kimberly Espinel [00:20:04]:
something missing in that reel or, or you know, carousel. I don't know what it was that didn't entice people to click the follow button. And we need to understand what that is.
Zach Spuckler [00:20:15]:
I love that. Can...this is really helpful and I think this will be helpful for a lot of people because I think so many of us do, I call it spray and pray. Like I'll just spray my comments on the internet and pray that somebody sees it. And I think a lot of us do that, but we don't actually dig into the stats. This is like so helpful. Can you maybe touch on someone? Like, let's say someone says I have like a smaller audience, you know, 100 to 500 people. And it's kind of like I know there's no magic bullet.
Zach Spuckler [00:20:44]:
I know that. But it's like what is the, what is the process? If you're like, okay, maybe my data is limited and I'm trying to break through. What would you say is something actionable someone can do to, like, start getting that data? My. My gut feeling as, like, an outside observer would be like, maybe I just start to your point, posting three times a week and maybe doing, like, reels just to. Because we know those tend to reach more people. But if I'm like, look, I feel like I'm pouring into Instagram in terms of, like, time and energy, maybe not strategy, which I think you're really bringing to the table, which is making me so happy. But it's like I'm pouring all this time in because I hear I need to be present, I need to be consistent, But I'm not seeing, like, that kind of breakthrough moment.
Zach Spuckler [00:21:25]:
What are the things that we can do to start to, like, produce that content that kind of breaks through that, you know, the 200 view jail on reels or the 1% engagement throttle that we hear about?
Kimberly Espinel [00:21:35]:
Yes. So I love this question because this is essentially what my new book is about, how to make your food famous. So I interviewed 40, in this case, it was food content creators. So people within the food and photography space. And I interviewed them. So all of them had to have at least a hundred thousand followers. Many of them had over a million followers, and they needed to be on a growth trajectory.
Kimberly Espinel [00:21:58]:
So that was my criteria for choosing these 40 people. And really what I wanted to understand, what I did in the research and the interview with them was like, how did they achieve it? Like, what did they do? How what, you know, what brought them the success when we're all trying here and, you know, failing, as it were, you know, what is it spray and pray? Or whatever you called it, you know, how come they're doing it and just every content piece hits the mark? And I think there were a couple of standout things that I'd like to share here. And then, of course, if people want more tips that they can pick up the book. But one of the key things that so many of them got right was their hook. I would say 99.9% of content pieces that don't hit the mark is because those first three seconds are boring. People are not engaged. People are not connecting. And, you know, sometimes it breaks my heart because sometimes then, you know, afterwards that it actually gets really good or people are sharing really valuable content.
Kimberly Espinel [00:22:59]:
But if you don't grab people's attention those first three seconds, you know, it's over, it's done. And I would even argue Everybody says three seconds, but I would even say it's like a second and a half. Like, there has to be... So if there's one thing you're going to focus your energy on, if you're posting, posting, and literally it's crickets, look at your first three seconds. And the other thing I would do is then look at people who are in your niche or just, you know, creators or, or business owners who are posting content that you love and compare your first three seconds to their first three seconds. I'm not suggesting you copy and paste what they're doing, but just understand, like, are they coming out with a really bold statement? Like, you know, if you're not growing on Instagram, you suck? I don't know, you know, like, they're coming out with like, is there something they're saying? Or are they saying, watch this video and you can get to a million dollars by the end of the year? Like, is there something that you're not doing that you're not delivering, that you can take and adjust and adapt? So to say. So I, I would say that was like one of the things that most of those creators got right. And if there's one thing you're going to focus on, it is that. Your hook.
Zach Spuckler [00:24:10]:
I love that, because when I think about the content I've done in the past, like 6 to 12 months, because I wouldn't say we're intentionally Instagramming, but when I'm on Instagram, I'm really intentional about my content, is it's a hook. Whether it's static or reels based content, it's like something really grabs attention. And I even think about that post that we were just talking about, the one that got really good reach and engagement, but not necessarily follows. I was just looking at that reel and the hook is like, it's a video of me watching Taylor Swift come out at the concert. And so the opening line is like, while Taylor Swift was entering Wembley, dot, dot, dot. And I'm like, well, yeah, that makes sense. That's why people are hooking into the content. Because you'd be like, what is this guy going to do? What is going to happen? Like, it's very much evoking that curiosity, if you will.
Zach Spuckler [00:25:00]:
So I'm like, okay, I can.... Sorry, I bumped my mute. Even in my static content, I see that that happens. Like the hook where I'm like, you know, kind of like evoking emotion or like, well, where is this going? Tends to do better. And I love what you said because we say this about advertising too. And I think this is so key. If you are listening to this is: go study what other people are doing. It doesn't mean you have to steal.
Zach Spuckler [00:25:26]:
But like, success leaves clues. Emulate what people are doing. Some of our best performing ads. I have no shame in admitting this. Like, I've looked at people like Amy Porterfield, James Wedmore, Michael Hyatt, Stu McLaren, and I'm like, I'm not gonna go steal their content. But I'm like, I noticed this is high contrast. I noticed it's a strong call out. I noticed that, like, Amy at one point had run these reels where it was just her on the treadmill, had nothing to do with the content.
Zach Spuckler [00:25:51]:
But I thought, oh, that's really like, something I wouldn't traditionally see from Amy. And so I tried like a reel where I was just in a different setting and we tried a static image of me in the pool in LA. And I was like, this will never work. And it's one of our best performers because, again, it's not the type of content I typically post. So just to emulate your point further is, like, whether it's Instagram or ads or anything, there's so much value. You don't have to steal what someone is doing to go, oh, this hook is like, I'd love for you to speak on this. Like, when you're trying to emulate someone's content, like, how do you kind of. I wouldn't even say ride the line because I don't think anything is that innovative anymore in most industries.
Zach Spuckler [00:26:31]:
But, like, I'll just say, like, ride the line between I'm taking this content and I'm going a layer deeper to understand the intention or the value behind the content.
Kimberly Espinel [00:26:40]:
Yes, I want to answer that question, but there's still one piece I want to say.
Zach Spuckler [00:26:44]:
Yes, please.
Kimberly Espinel [00:26:45]:
And I know time is of the essence.
Zach Spuckler [00:26:47]:
You're good.
Kimberly Espinel [00:26:47]:
You're good. But, you know, the Taylor Swift piece, I. That was a reel, right. Was that real? That. Yeah. So I would now turn that into a carousel and have, you know, maybe a static or even a video - whatever works - of you with that Taylor Swift as that be your first opening frame and then have a carousel, you know, building on. Because it worked.
Kimberly Espinel [00:27:09]:
That opening frame, we know, worked. I would take it and maybe have it lead on and then make your journey and the conclusion stronger, you know? So that's one. The second piece was how do you not copy and paste someone else's? So the thing is this. Even if I try. I can't. So even if I try, I can't, because it doesn't.
Kimberly Espinel [00:27:35]:
It's not like, let's take Amy Porterfield. She has a different audience, she has a different vibe. You know, like, even if I try to, you know, copy and paste exactly what she's doing, it's just going to be weird. I'm going to feel weird because she has a different way of, she uses different words. It doesn't go.
Kimberly Espinel [00:27:52]:
What I do try and do is if there's, if there's one element of what she's doing that like, somehow speaks to me, I take that element and dress it up in Kimberly Espinel style. Does that make sense?
Zach Spuckler [00:28:07]:
Yes.
Kimberly Espinel [00:28:07]:
So, for example. And you'll like this. So for me, we only run ads once a year, and that is in the lead up to our big challenge. And what I did is I looked at, like, Adobe, you know, other big, big, huge brands within the photography space, and I looked at the ads they were running, I looked at the colors they used, I looked at the fonts, I looked at the positioning. They use different colors, they use different fonts. But I did think they probably spent like a million bucks on figuring out how big to make their font and kind of how many images to include. I'm gonna take that.
Kimberly Espinel [00:28:47]:
I'm gonna add my photos, I'm gonna use my fonts, I'm gonna just use my colors. But I'm gonna, you know, the contrast or the big bold or the underlying whatever. I'm going to use that. It's going to look like Kimberly. It's not going to look like Adobe, but I'm going to learn from them and see that, you know, having the header and then an underline and keeping it to five words or no more, that worked for them. It's going to work for me, too.
Kimberly Espinel [00:29:11]:
So let's roll with it. But no, you know, but I didn't use their copy, I didn't use their fonts, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the other way that I use it. It's just, I take like one thing I learned from that, and then I adjust and adapt.
Zach Spuckler [00:29:25]:
I love this. And again, I know... For those listening, we're on video. So I'm sure you see my eyes darting around because I'm like, as you're talking, I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to open this person and that person. And like, there's one person I follow who talks a lot about Instagram social media marketing, and I love their content because it always goes like really viral. I don't necessarily like their content. I could take or leave no judgment. That's why I'm not name dropping the.
Zach Spuckler [00:29:51]:
But what I'm always so fascinated by is they just amass massive engagement. And I've always said to myself, like, oh, that's because it's Instagram talking about Instagram. But now that I'm looking through the lens of what you're saying, like, well, this content works. Like, I'm looking at one particular piece of content. Because it's simple and it's easy to digest. Whereas I look at all the other people posting very similar content and it's like complicated or it's like overly pretty and it's this minimalist style.
Zach Spuckler [00:30:19]:
And I'm like, okay, I wouldn't necessarily post about like how to create a month of content on Instagram, but I'm like, I do love this idea of minimal style. I love that he's got this cover photo that really is like what people want. And I'm looking at that. I'm literally bookmarking it right now. Cause I'm like, I can hear what you're saying is I need to take this particular post and I'm like, okay, what if I tested a very minimal style, Bold font, basic call out, strong hook in the... You know, I'm just, I think there's so much value to that because I was going to ask you this question, but I think you kind of answered it and I want to point it out for the listeners is if we don't know what to post, what, what should we be posting? And it's like, go look at what's working. Whether it's reels or content or carousels. And I love this idea of, you know, just looking at it through a different lens and saying, if you make it yours, it can't be the same.
Kimberly Espinel [00:31:10]:
100%. 100%. And I also think, you know, I mean, I'm a nerd. Let's just put our cards on the table, right? Like, I'm a nerd. So what I do is I sit down at the beginning of the month or end of the month. However, like, usually like the very last day of the month, I look at all my stats. And then I think, okay, these, so like the Taylor Swift piece, like, okay, this performed well. How can I repackage? Just take the hook, improve on that. So I will have little pieces like that.
Kimberly Espinel [00:31:37]:
And then I also think, like, is there something I'm selling or is there a product that I'm launching or is there something that was really popular and I've dropped the ball on promoting it and mentioning it. So maybe I can post a couple of content pieces that, you know, align with that or, or that give people a flavor of what that product is like. And then at the end of the month I can have a proper promo post and be like, hey, 10% off for 48 hours only. But I've kind of already shown something along those lines. So I think there's, if we're running a business, an online business, there's always something to sell and there's always ways to prep for that launch / sale. And that's how you plan your content, right? So you take things that have worked, then you look at what you want to sell, then you think about examples, you know, non salesy value pieces that are somehow linked and tied up to what's coming so that you hopefully reach new people whose problem you solve with those content pieces. And then at the end, oh, by the way, if you, if you want to learn how to do Facebook marketing or whatever, then you know, there's 10% off or 20% off or whatever at the end of the month. So that's how I also think about it, you know? Like I think about it on different tiers.
Kimberly Espinel [00:32:52]:
One is what's worked. Two is what am I selling? And then three, what value pieces can I create that lead nicely into that offer?
Zach Spuckler [00:33:01]:
I love that you're saying that, because I work with so many people. Like I actually, this is a super tangent, but I promise it makes sense is I had a sales call today with somebody who wanted to work with our agency and I was like, well, what is your funnel converting at? What are how many leads, you know, turn into sales? And they were like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And I basically told them point blank. Then our first 30 to 60 days together is 100% a cost, not even an investment. You could say it's an investment in data, but that's all I'm doing for 30 to 60 days is getting this data because I can't make decisions without it. And where I see this linking in with you is I see so many people do this, is we, we do what this exact person did and it's no judgment to them. If you're listening, I'm not naming names. A lot of people do this.
Zach Spuckler [00:33:47]:
We look at our stats or we look at our numbers. And we think we're doing data analysis because we're like, well, I clicked on the Insights button on Instagram. So like this same person was able to be like, well, I had five purchases and like, but in what time span? Out of how many people, what was the conversion rate? How did they buy? What was the path they took? And it's like looking at the Insights tab. Why I'm nerding out about this so much is because like we had talked about earlier, you're like, well, look at this stat. What does that stat mean? What is the consequence of these stats? There is so much value in anything you do in business. Data will tell you a story. And so don't. If you're listening to this, I would offer up and I know it's your interview, so feel free to talk over me and say you don't agree. But I would say the big thing I'm taking from this is you need to look at what people are doing, test it yourself, but also do something with that data.
Zach Spuckler [00:34:36]:
And it doesn't have to... For me, like we track all the data in our launches. It didn't start as this 12 tab deep spreadsheet that it is now. It started by, you can just sit down and go, 12 squares if that's how many you posted, put a big green check next to what did the best. Go look at them and like, do something with that data. Because there's like... I've never interviewed or talked to anyone about Instagram who has given me such a clear way to actually look at things. So many people are like, do what works.
Zach Spuckler [00:35:07]:
Look at your data. See when people are posting. So I'm very loving this interview. We might go a little long if you've got the time. Because I think there's just so much value that people aren't talking about looking at the data.
Kimberly Espinel [00:35:20]:
And I think, you know, to go back to the 40 plus creators that I spoke about, all of them, all of them were strategic. I think sometimes we look at people who've got like a million followers and we think like, oh my God, it just happened. Literally, none of them. All of them are so serious. They're creative business owners, at the end of the day. They know exactly what works. They understand their audience, they know how to work the platform.
Kimberly Espinel [00:35:48]:
They understand the difference between Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. They know the hook, they know the thumbnail, they know the caption. They, you know, they've really studied this. That's why they're at a million plus, 2 million plus. You know, like I sometimes think, we think that for people it comes really easily. No, they're just, they're getting stuck into the nitty gritty and that's how they build their strategy.
Zach Spuckler [00:36:12]:
Okay, I love that. There is one thing that maybe matters, maybe doesn't. So I'll ask the question: when you're working on your, your, your Instagram, so it's like we figure out what content works. Hypothetically, let's say we've been doing this for 90 days. We're three months in, we notice people are coming to us. How important - this is a selfish question. How important is like that, that screenshot if you will, of like what they see when they land on your bio. Like, can you just walk us through if, number one, is it even that important? But number two, if it is important, like what should the bio be doing? Do we need those call outs from the stories? Do we need pinned posts? Like, I know that's a big ask. I know.
Zach Spuckler [00:36:51]:
But like, what is, what does like an ideal bio kind of flow need to be?
Kimberly Espinel [00:36:56]:
So I'm going to break this up a little bit. So the first thing is the actual grid. So you know, I think like your grid has more of an organic kind of chillax vibe, 100%. Whereas if you look at my grid, my grid, which is The Little Plantation. You know, it has that more, has more of that creative vibe. And I think the reality is both of, you know, we're both running successful businesses because we understand what our audience wants. You know, my audience is really, it's, they want that curated, high-end look. So if I did something, you know, cash, it would just not work. Yeah.
Kimberly Espinel [00:37:33]:
Versus if yours were too curated, it would be a little bit standoffish. It wouldn't, you know, connect. So I think that's the very first thing you need to think about is like, what do I want my grid to look like in terms of what my audience expects, the people I want to connect with. If you have a younger audience, I think something more chillax. If you have a more female driven audience, that's more my audience. Women do love the kind of more finessed look, so to say, you know, so that's number one. Number two in terms of pinned, what I love about Instagram actually now is that you can have pinned things on your general grid and then the pinned just on your real grid as well. So they can be different.
Kimberly Espinel [00:38:15]:
So I think that it's always nice to have an about me or you know, what I offer or you know, thanks for coming here. This is what you can find something like that. And then I love to, to have something that includes a, you know, say the word, in my case, say the word studio and then you know, Manychat or will send you a link to sign up to the newsletter. So something that helps you build your newsletter or send people to your podcast or whatever it is that you, your YouTube, whatever it is that your main thing is. I think it's nice to have that as well. And then something that performed super well and also not like, let's just say if I did something that performed super well but like, like the coffee with my younger self. Let's take that one again. So that performed super well. But really and truly is that a good example of the kind of content people could expect? The kind of content that really showcases what your business is about? Probably not.
Kimberly Espinel [00:39:15]:
So even though it performed well, I wouldn't choose that as my pinned post. I would really choose something that kind of gives a super duper flavor of why you're the expert when it comes to, you know, Facebook ads and those kind of things. So I would have that pinned. And then usually on the reels, because that's the next tab, I have tend to have my three best performing ones that, that showcase what you can expect, you know? So I do them slightly differently in terms of highlights. So this is really interesting, because there was a rumor that Instagram is going to get rid of highlights. They haven't yet. So, you know, watch this space. For now, I love to have again something like things that lead to affiliate links.
Kimberly Espinel [00:40:02]:
So again, for me it's really my food photography gear. People always ask me where did you get that lens? Or you know, what camera do you use? So I have all my affiliate links there. And I, you know, make sales regularly. So that's a nice income. But also it answers a question, right? I have something like all my opt ins, I have that as a highlight too. So again I'm building the mailing list. And then some behind the scenes, podcasts. Like I have a couple of different ones, the same way that you would have on a website. You know, the key areas: about me or courses or, you know, I have way too many, I have to say, I have to cull them. I have to, you know, tone them down a little bit. But I think kind of five or six really strong ones I think is amazing.
Kimberly Espinel [00:40:46]:
And then I do, I am a stickler for a good bio photo.
Zach Spuckler [00:40:51]:
Okay.
Kimberly Espinel [00:40:51]:
I think, you know, I kind of feel like your profile photo is really like your little stamp. I always think about it. It's like a Hansel & Gretel situation where everywhere you go, every comment you leave, it's your profile photo there.
Zach Spuckler [00:41:03]:
Yeah.
Kimberly Espinel [00:41:04]:
Yeah. So I think if you're chillax, if you're fun, if you're, you know, you smiling or whatever. Like, I do think you need to think about that. And then the bio itself needs to be who I am, what I offer, who I serve and link to an opt in, mailing list builder - standard. That is a super formula. We never veer off that.
Zach Spuckler [00:41:22]:
I love it. That's super helpful. And I think it's interesting you say that because I do have a very chillaxed vibe, but I do have a predominantly female audience and I do notice that when the cover photo is more aesthetic, that we do get more engagement. So that's something just to think about.
Kimberly Espinel [00:41:41]:
I love that. There you go.
Zach Spuckler [00:41:44]:
Okay, this is incredible. I don't want to steal too much more of your time. And while we were talking, like, I'm such a bad multitasker and I was looking at all my Instagram stuff, so thank you for putting up with me. But one of the things I did do was order your book. Can you tell us a little about your book and where we can check it out? Like, it's coming tomorrow from Amazon. I'm very excited.
Kimberly Espinel [00:42:03]:
Thank you so much. So, How to Make Your Food Famous. It is mainly geared towards people within the food photography, food content space. But as I highlighted today, I hope lots of the tips and tricks they use to grow to 500, a million, etc is really applicable to anyone. But also there are tips in the book just to beautify your Instagram, to up your reels game, talks about gear to use and those kind of things. So, yes, I can highly recommend it.
Zach Spuckler [00:42:33]:
Yes. And I want to throw out there for those who are listening. Like, I am a huge advocate for studying content from other industries, because you will see things through a completely different lens. And I think there's so much value to that. I read a book that was about, like, ecommerce the other day. The other day, a few months ago, honestly. But I was like, this is so smart. I would have never thought to position my products this way because that's an ecommerce mindset and I adapted it for that.
Zach Spuckler [00:43:01]:
And I think of a very specific thing we did in our business that works. So if you're listening to this and you're like, well, I don't do food photography. I would offer up for 15, 20 bucks, study a different industry, because it is so worth it. And I say this wholeheartedly, like, I don't endorse things I don't believe in. I haven't read the book, obviously, because I just ordered it. Because I'm smitten with this conversation. I can tell that the information you're going to get from this book and from Kimberly is not the watered down stuff you're seeing on your Instagram feed from all the Instagram experts. No judgment. It's just very same, same. This is a depth of information that I absolutely can get behind.
Zach Spuckler [00:43:37]:
Especially when you told me I've interviewed 40 people, I was like, sold. Because too many people are basing things on their experience instead of the landscape. And I'm very excited to dig into this. I'm sorry I cut you off. But please, I'm just so excited about this.
Kimberly Espinel [00:43:53]:
Thank you. It is a very bite size, so you don't need to be, you know, technically versed. You don't need to be a food photographer. It's very digestible and it's, it's really a springboard to get inspired, to get new ideas. You can get it at Barnes and Nobles, Amazon, all the places. So, yes, thank you so, so much, Zach, for allowing me to share a little bit more about my, my nerdy Instagram obsession and the book. And yeah, thank you so much.
Zach Spuckler [00:44:19]:
I love that. So for those who are loving this, maybe they are in the food space, maybe they're not. Where can we follow you? Where can we find out more? What should we do next? Like give us all the things.
Kimberly Espinel [00:44:30]:
Yes. So, of course, you can order my new book, How to Make Your Food Famous, that would be amazing. You can find me on Instagram under The Little Plantation, because I started as a plant-based food blog. And there, if you want to drop me a DM and just let me know that you found me through this podcast, be amazing too. And yeah, that's. I think those are the two best, best places. And oh, sorry, one more is my podcast: Eat, Capture, Share, where you have been a guest. And yes, so it would be those three places really are the book, Instagram and the podcast.
Zach Spuckler [00:45:03]:
I love that. And like I said, guys, we will link all of that up in the show notes for you, which I will give you the link to in just a second. And I just want to say this one more time because I think it bears saying, like I don't bring a lot of guests on the podcast. It is very hard for me to say yes to a guest on our podcast. Not because we're exclusive or fancy, but frankly, we get a lot of suggestions and not a lot of people I trust enough to put in front of my audience. And I've done interviews that I don't release. We will be releasing this one because this is just a depth of information that I truly don't feel is being given in the spaces that I've paid good money to try and figure out Instagram. And I've never actually walked away from a $200, 300, 400, 500 course feeling like I have the information I've just gotten from you. So I'm so geeked to share this with people.
Zach Spuckler [00:45:53]:
So again, you guys. Like, I would just offer up, check out Kimberly - @thelittleplantation - check out the book, go through your stats, look at your numbers, because this is just really quality information. I'm very excited to share this with my audience. So thank you so much for being here. Any final words, things to think about, anything you want to say in parting before you go? Because I'll just keep gushing if you don't stop me.
Kimberly Espinel [00:46:16]:
No, just thank you so, so much. Zach, I really appreciate you. Yeah, thank you.
Zach Spuckler [00:46:21]:
Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. You guys stick around for the show notes and we will give you a little wrap up those links and everything you need. All right, well, I hope you got massive value from that episode because I know for me, the biggest thing that hangs me up with Instagram, gets me hung up is like, I don't know what I don't know and I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking at. And so having such a data driven, insight driven approach from Kimberly, I'm really excited to be implementing it in the next few quarters.
